A dinosaur, future extinction and a set of Manuals

General Discussion
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Some of you may have seen that I had previously posted a For Sale ad on this forum for one spare set of quality printed versions of:

  1. Moto Guzzi’s printed workshop service manual
  2. Moto Guzzi’s printed spares catalogue
  3. Moto Guzzi’s printed owners manual (large print)

Moderators kindly pointed out the heinous crime that they think I might have strayed into (copyright) for these V100 Mandello books, and the dire errors of my ways - so I asked them to delete the advert. I apologise.

I am obviously a Dinosaur.

I simply had these hard copies printed for me and another friend - but he had some health issues and sold his V100.

I was just trying to recoup some of the printing costs of these spare copies. I understand the moderators taking umbrage and hiding/deleting my advert - that’s fine.

I will just keep the spares.

This was just my simple wish to have an analogue PAPER version of some important info for one of my Guzzi’s - but that’s a real problem - when Guzzi won’t actually sell you one! (I did try).

That leads me to a general observation from me - Moto Guzzi just point you to an online thing. I struggle to read anything on a phone, and with me - a laptop in a workshop is just an accident waiting to happen…

It seems you can’t do anything without everything being digital or online - so this dinosaur is having to learn - clearly not well enough.

Part of that is undoubtedly my fault - at 62 years of age, I did not grow up with tech. I still use paper, pencil and pen, still write notes and rarely type stuff.

When I draw out stuff to make in my workshop, its with a ruler or French curves. I use a vernier micrometer, a set of vernier calipers and yes, even a slide rule and tables. Yes I do have a calculator - but it only does the basic scientific stuff. I do use a laptop these days for diagnostics and invoices (with help!) - but that’s about it.

Clearly those analogue things are no longer “valid” in today’s digitised world. A bit like experience and engineering/making skills - these are seldom valued or wanted today.

Until last year (when it broke) I was using my old Nokia mobile that was the shape and size of an old Mars bar. Mars bars have got smaller, and my phone broke (I don’t think those facts are related) so my nephew passed me his “old” iPhone.

I think I use maybe 1% of it’s functions - although I do think FaceTime is a great tool.
I’m also dictating this message on it - because although now I can access t’internet (and this forum) on the phone - my thumbs don’t work these pesky small keyboards. I struggle to read the screen at times - but it does save going back into the house and switching the laptop on.

I have avoided until recently using ANY social media or forums for the very reason that people appear to take umbrage or misread info that’s simply my turn of phrase.
These days it seems whatever you write - someone takes offence. In this case it was a desire to use paper and recoup printing costs. Again moderators - I apologise.

I want to participate in a club that is about my passion for Italian bikes and the Guzzis I own, but it sadly appears I can no longer do that in a simpler analogue world. I had thought those books might possibly help another dinosaur!

Obviously not - but it’s OK - us dinosaurs will soon be extinct.

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Just put it on ebay, they don’t care about copyright judging by all the other copied manuals on there.

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Yes, or Facebook groups.

In other news, another member has posted manuals for sale - so I commented on the ad, given my experience on this forum - and so the moderators have now removed my comment.

I am new to this forum and the club, but it does seem that this dinosaur - despite trying to help another member from falling foul of the rules - Has again fallen foul of them…

Why?

Any comment @Chris950s - as it seems you hold all the answers?

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image1320×1492 150 KB

Oh and the other advert for Guzzi copyrighted manuals still stands…

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It looks like theyre selling the original, not a copy. Thats not a breach of copyright.

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I can help, I think. If you are actually requesting help?

One of the things that makes this forum useful is “sticking to topic” - here, in “General Discussion”, this is arguably not so important (although “keep it Guzzi” is generally favoured, I think). When replying to, example, a FOR SALE or TECHNICAL post, please try and respond on topic, or, alternatively, just don’t respond.

Also, if the mod (Chris) has had cause to constructively query a post, try working with them rather than hounding them. The mods try to keep this forum on track, working according to the currently established rules, and thus help to keep it what it is: a remarkably useful resource to all members.

Hope this helps.

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There’s a possibility that this post will get shot, but I’d like to try and bring some clarity to the copyright situation. This is based on thirty years in the software industry and the need to keep to/check copyright. I am also still active in software development and am one of a very select group of people who have had code and text ripped off by Microsoft and put out as their own :astonished_face: That’s a long story and it’s a quarter-century old by now.

UK law is surprisingly specific. It states that you can make a single backup copy for personal use only, provided that you do no not remove or cripple any DRM (digital rights management). If you sell the original you must either destroy the backup or pass it on with the original copy. You may not make copies for other people.

Italian copyright law is identical to UK law, except that it specifically states that if the software you have is an electronic copy of text, your backup copy can be a printed copy.

A brief overview of Italian copyright law

This is just for information and does not constitute legal advice in any shape or form. It is written from personal experience only.

Oddly, German copyright law specifically states that you can share copies with family members ‘within reason’ (not defined).

Chris: please shoot this post if you think it’s too close to the bone.

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I certainly found it helpful. The original issue was, in fact, only questioning whether there might be a copyright infringement issue. It rather felt like it might be in that vicinity, but #notanexpert

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Excuse me I did not say you risked the clubs reputation, those are your own words. I asked you if the information you were selling was copyright. Until that situation has been proven and until the committee advise me that your manuals are ok to sell on here your ad will be frozen.

That is what I have said and in no way have I said that I hold all the answers, but it is obvious that you do not, nor have you listened to my advice but decided to carry on moderator bashing to play to the crowds.

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Thanks - actually the most useful post here.!

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OK, before this gets really silly…

@Chris950s (and all you other oily-fingered Guzzi-tinkering folks)…

Pass my vernier calipers (they stir Yorkshire Tea well) and I will have a swig of the resulting strong brew before I start.
This old Lancashire dinosaur has just lumbered straight back into my tar pit and proved my own point from that very first “Future Extinction” post!

Oh, and this reply might go on a bit longer - because unfortunately for you lot, I am dictating it - and so you are getting the unredacted version.. :rofl::man_facepalming:t3:

There I was, a harmless old fossil, simply asking for a bit of clarity on what looked like proper double standards.

One chap quietly recoups a few bob with a copied CD of copyrighted Moto Guzzi workshop manuals, while my innocent set of printed manuals (workshop service, spares catalogue and large-print owner’s manual) gets the moderator chop. Fair enough.

I have since read two excellent responses and explanations that helped clarify a bit of that copyright stuff for me. Thanks to those.

It still doesn’t quite address the challenge faced when Guzzi don’t print a paper version themselves.

What exactly are the rules?

To make it crystal clear Chris, I wasn’t trying to make a profit or run a black-market printing empire from my old shed. I had just two copies of each item done properly for personal use (and one for a friends personal use) and yes, that was ONLY because Moto Guzzi themselves won’t sell you printed versions!

They just point you to some online PDF thing that’s no use to a proper analogue bloke like me who needs something you can spill tea and oil on in the workshop. I don’t need my reading glasses so much for a manual either!

So I had these books printed, but soon after doing that - one pristine set was no simply longer needed.
I was only trying to pass them on to a another dinosaur (yes, there are others) who also prefers paper - and importantly, for less than the actual printing and shipping cost.

That’s it. No fortune, no crime spree – just trying to be helpful without wasting good trees and ink.

Next thing I know, because I then asked an awkward or badly phrased question I’m being accused of “moderator bashing” and “playing to the audience.”

Blimey, Chris!

I thought I was just politely tagging you with a confused shrug and a “now then, fella, can we please have a bit of clarity here?” – I was not leading a Pennine-derived pitchfork mob through the Sourhern Counties forum car park waving burning greasy rags calling for revolution !

If that’s offended you, or any others on here - well, consider this my apology.

As a brand-new member still finding my big dinosaur feet :t_rex: (and trying not to trip over your booby trapped welcome mat, or leave oily footprints everywhere), this sort of exchange is exactly what I meant in my original dinosaur post.

Like other online stuff, things appear to get taken the wrong way round here quicker than a Guzzi gearbox clunks loudly into first on a cold Lancashire morning.

One minute you’re trying to be helpful to someone ; the next you’re being flattened like a hedgehog on the A6. And let’s be honest – it’s hardly the warmest welcome for new blood, is it?

I had thought the Moto Guzzi Club wwould be a friendly club of like-minded folk who all love these big agricultural Italian beasts. Nobody wants more jobsworths madly waving their rulebook like it’s the Highway Code - we have enough idiots in government without adding to them.

Yes, I understand, Moderators do a tough voluntary job (and I do really appreciate that), but a touch more patience, a respectful explanation, and maybe even a cheeky PM with “now then fella, here’s how it works…” would go a very long way….

I am a pretty blunt Northern dinosaur, and so I am clearly not socially acceptable for some, and this exchange demonstrates why this forum and those who run it - do risk scaring off the very analogue fossils who keep these old forums (and in my case many old Guzzis) alive and kicking.

No hard feelings whatsoever, though Chris – I’m not going to hang around here to cause you any more bother. I know where I am not wanted.

You will be happy to know this old dinosaur will now just bugger off into obscurity, it seems that’s the safest way. I will stay on the forum and in the club for now, and just lurk, glean info and ask technical questions I have forgotten the answers to.

No more posting, no more ads, no more talking out of turn.

I had hoped the forum was to chat bikes, swap workshop tips, and maybe even help a fellow needy Guzzi owner without starting World War III over a few sheets of paper that would be far better “being of use” than just weighing down my recycling bin.

We’re all supposed to be “in the same shed” at the end of the day, cursing the same electrical gremlins and dreaming of that perfect V-twin burble on a sunny day on a smooth bit of winding tarmac (but not in the UK I think - it’s more pothole dodging here,)

So I will be generous, and just chalk all this interesting discussion up to a classic misunderstanding, call a truce, put the kettle on and just stomp my big old dinosaur feet back into the workshop where I’m trying to re-affix the seat cover on my Laverda 1200 Mirage. I’ll just aim to keep many more Italian motorcycle wheels turning, the tea warm, and my valuable paper manuals un-crumpled..

TTFN

Dave F

(The slightly bruised but still rumbling old dinosaur – now desperately needing a fresh pot of ink as well as tea)

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Thanks, I am not an IT savvy person and was only asking for clarification - but opened mouth and inserted big dinosaur foot.

I give up.

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At this point, i’d say that’s wise :joy:

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Yes, thanks for the welcome.

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Dave

As I have said above, we are unsure as to the responsibilities of the club hosting your sales as the copyright of the documents have not been verified (this was my first question to you).

I await guidance from the club committee and until such time I have removed your adverts, these can be replaced if and when I get clearance to do so.

Please be patient and await their call.

Best wishes Chris

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I’m unsure how much time the massed ranks of the Guzzi legal dept spend trawling the tinterweb searching for potential litigation opportunities, but out of interest I posted a question on the Moto Guzzi UK site specifically asking if printed docs could be shared as described by Dave without fear of copyright infringement.
Here’s their succinct response, hope it helps.

att.ALHeOZlvqftBt-ZlwTWtEmuN3gzIDhjsEV6TK0DYmIA
att.ALHeOZlvqftBt-ZlwTWtEmuN3gzIDhjsEV6TK0DYmIA1080×1787 125 KB

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Do you think its Ok to take a copy of this :rofl:

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I am now ending my self-imposed silence on the matter - only to try and be helpful.

There is definitely confusion about exactly what you can do when a manufacturer like Moto Guzzi makes manuals freely available in PDF format, and what owners can actually do with them.

For clarity, in my case, I had tried to purchase paper manuals from Moto Guzzi UK and Italy, but they referred me to the PDFs and effectively said, “Just print them”.

The issue appears to be about whether or not it’s fair to try and recoup printing or any other costs when you no longer need the set of manuals, CD’s or electronic files and wish to pass them on, in whatever form yourself.

I’d NEVER really thought about this, especially since there was never any business intent to profit.

You see many workshop manuals for lots of other vehicles and bikes - some official, some not - on all sorts of auction sites and platforms, as well as at auto jumbles. I now understand that these are all probably being sold in breach of copyright law.

Given the responses on this forum last week, I decided over the weekend to ask my cousin (a barrister) to explain the position to me as best he could in dinosaur terms.

He looked into it, and I got his response this morning.

There is apparently some debate as to which copyright law applies - and whether it is Italian or the UK in this instance - since Moto Guzzi is an Italian company. It appears the strictest laws are in the UK, and given that Moto Guzzi has a UK subsidiary, it may be wise to apply UK law.

My cousins unofficial opinion (and not to be relied upon in court) is this:

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“Obtaining electronic files from Moto Guzzi for your own personal use is absolutely fine, but even just copying and sharing those files with anyone else in ANY form - PDF, CD, or printed is technically in breach of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 - as copyright infringement.

Under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988:

• Copyright protects “literary works” such as technical manuals.

• The restricted acts include copying the work in any form and “issuing copies to the public” (which covers sharing or selling, even just covering postage, or your print cost price or a significant loss). The cost is irrelevant - just as simply sharing the file, a CD, or a copy with anyone else is also infringing the Act.

• UK “fair dealing” exceptions are very narrow (private study/research, criticism, review, etc.) and do not cover ANY re-distribution or resale of whole works.

• Selling a motorcycle with the manuals you have for it is somewhat ridiculously ALSO technically an infringement, since you are passing on copyrighted material (for a fee) along with the motorcycle.

Even if you gave the motorcycle away for free with the manuals, you would probably still be in technical breach of the Act.

In reality and common practice, though, it would be churlish of Moto Guzzi to launch a civil copyright case for such a sale, and it would go against their customer base, and commercial suicide.

In short, you can buy, obtain, or download manuals for your own use and print them, put them on a CD or store them on a device.

(Note that if purchased, it is the person or organisation who is storing or passing the material on who is liable, not the purchaser.)

Unless you have specific permissions from the copyright holder, even the common practice of a club holding a repository of manuals to download is potentially in violation of the act. It’s a pretty draconian Act, but generally not applied by most copyright holders unless they see a blatant infringement where someone is clearly profiting from their intellectual property.

Usually repeat offenders that come onto the radar get a “cease and desist” letter which points out the provisions of the Act and this is enough to prevent any ongoing activity.

However, if the copyright holder took action for every case of individuals handing manuals on, or selling their old copy,then they wouldn’t be doing anything else as this happens thousands of times a day.

As a barrister practising commercial law, I often advise even very litigious copyright holders to exercise common sense and restraint when using the Act, since often the very people who are passing this information on are simply customers and supporters of their brand.

Taking action in these cases is likely to cause much more reputational harm to the copyright holder. As a result, turning a legal blind eye to these activities is considered normal, as long as it is not being abused regularly. The copyright holder always has the Act on their side should they want to take action, but I remind them that it’s there predominantly to stop repeated misuse.

From what you have explained - it is extremely unlikely that any reasonable copyright holder would be concerned in the slightest if a customer or enthusiast sold a spare copy or two to just cover printing costs, or if anyone would ever consider that transferring a CD of their manuals for postage or handling costs, to other enthusiasts of their brand would be a sensible reason to go to law.

If it were 100 or 200 copies for sale online however - then a letter would probably follow - asking the individual to stop. Only if the seller repeatedly breached that, would any action likely follow.

This is my unofficial advice, and it should not be relied upon in court, but I would probably advise the Moto Guzzi club to get specific permission from Moto Guzzi Italy, to hold, store and distribute electronic versions of any copyrighted materials that the company permits - for their members. This would also apply to anyone interacting on the forum and sharing electronic files. That way the club would be protected and so would its members.”

—

So I think the advice is clear now.

I think the ad can get deleted or removed, but there are clearly wider implications for the forum and what is permitted by its members. Even simply passing a CD, a file, a paper copy, or even a link to a manual download that is not on the official Moto Guzzi site - on to someone else is technically a breach of the Act - so if the Club/site wishes to avoid constantly policing this - perhaps the club should ask Moto Guzzi for specific permissions/exemptions over copyright.

I learn more every day about this complex world, and it makes me sad just how everything is complicated by seemingly endless bureaucracy.

Dinosaurs had it easy.

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It’s a funny ‘ol world eh.. time to ‘park it’ and instead focus on the ‘important stuff’.. riding & fettling motor bikes :+1:
(especially now the sun’s out & warming) :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

(@MrP.. oh sugar, just realised I ‘copied’ their reply.. :rofl:).

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Absolutely - just trying to work out why my Mirage is now completely electrically dead - after absolutely zero intervention since I ran it 16 hours ago..…:man_shrugging: