I read with interest the article by Sue and keith Nock. This has provisionally put the brakes on me buying a modern 8 valve guzzi. However i felt reading the article that maybe something was missing -ie the full facts.Â Â I also wrote to Tony Campbell -Piaggio group manager. To get any view from the Piaggio group on the new 8 valve engine - ( with a view of this article) explaining that having owned 6 Guzzis in the past it is with great concern that i would now question wether to consider one of the new 8 valve engine machines - which i have been considering to buy later this or early next year.
Â His response was actually quite good and he did state that the engine development was meeting expectations of performance, efficiency and reliability. He further expressed the commitment to out of warrant claims and goodwill which are extremely fair and customer orientated.
Â He however expressed disappointment at the way the outcome of the case was portrayed Â it was not a correct representation of the facts applicable to the case and further to this the customer chose to ignore and not mention significant details that would present a more balanced view of the outcome - in the article.Â
Â It would be interesting to know why - this is the view and what the full facts are. Â has the Agent - the repairing workshop not carried out work correctly ?, Â has the wrong oil been used in the engine ?, has service work not been carried out ? Â what are these missing bits of information for the case to come to this i think it only fair that a full disclosure be given so that we get a balanced view.
Â Â As someone who deals with customers and repairs - no matter what the best is sometimes its never enough, I am very aware that expectations can sometimes be at times difficult to meet more so when third parties are involved. It would be nice to know what these other and full facts may be.
Â Piaggio quite correctly did not deem it correct to disclose the case information to me.
It would however be nice to get to the bottom of this case and see everything laid out. Then we can make a more balanced view of the reason why the case went the way it did. Jake.Â
I would think that before going in to print that Keith and Sue would have taken advice…tis also quite telling in my view that they were not required to pay costs…
Call me cynical…but ‘spin’…is part of our lives these days…Guy and I certainly would not buy an 8 valve Guzzi without doing our homework…mind you…I have an 8 valve Guzzi…1993 vintage…
I don’t think its that telling regarding the fact that the cost were not awarded as the judge may well have seen that its a small person vs the giant scenario - and that awarding costs would be deemed heavy penalty for raising the issues. That is not at all unusual Â - contrary to popular belief, often minimal or no cost awards are made in cases - the judge does look at things like the money involved to both parties. I worked in law for 17 years so have some( a little) insight into these procedures. That said that does not also mean Piaggio won outright - so that is where the case detail comes in.
I think it only fair that no matter who are friends with who or how nice or diligent people are - and also realizing that the law is anything but just or balanced and in many cases certainly not always correct in judgement according to common sense or fairness as seen from the eye of anyone that could be classed as normal…
However Keith and Sue have stepped into the light - they have put into print some of the facts but not all the facts . They did not need to publish anything - but have - so now it would be good if they could disclose all the facts of the case.
Even though they had stood up for what they believe to be right - they did not win the case.
I am not taking sides I would simply like to evaluate the facts as maybe i see them - all of them for myself - then i can base my decision for myself on the facts from both sides.
They did say they would be publishing the full case on line - I wait with anticipation.
3 A’s in Gambalunga btw…the devil is indeed in the detail …
It certainly is !
My excuse for the spelling error :
I had been up for 20 hours when i wrote it - had just driven back from Devon to Northumberland - overnight and stayed up to try to get back into night sleep mode so was pretty tired - so please excuse the spelling error/s.
The devil indeed - he also hides in corners you know - so they say in Devon.Â
All i wanted to get to the bottom of was - as to whether this 8 valve motor, once the cams had been replaced with the later update - is it sorted and reliable. Guzzi say yes, this case suggests not.
The article has put doubt in my choice of buying this motor - or indeed a Guzzi again.
But we do not know all the facts from what has been written, i.e. why the heads were replaced twice and then parts offered as supply only a third time - somewhere there is a story why the cams failed.
Fair enough the court case was a bit about who pays - and extended warranty issues, I understand that - but first you need to know why they failed again and why a warranty claim etc was needed, ( was it owner / dealer/ manufacturer failure /fault etc) which i assume is why the court case came about and these facts have not been disclosed.
Having owned 6 Guzzis in the past, I had hoped to return to the Marque which i have always liked, foibles and all. However my needs are for a more modern comfortable bike so reluctantly i am moving to the more modern fuel injection series and had hoped to buy a modern sort of reliable !!! Guzzi. ( there are lots of alternative options on the market as we all know).
I have now decided that if i do decide to buy a Moto Guzzi again - that is a big if, then i am going for the 2 valve model - simply because that has a reasonable and proven history and this shadow of doom seems to be hanging over the 8 valve which would have been an option had i known the full story.
A real shame as in the long term this is a nail in the coffin for Guzzi. I think as a club promoting the marque it important to establish and disclose facts to enable members and prospective owners to have confidence in this great motorcycle marque.
Misinformation, biased or lack of information does just the opposite.
Tchus - jake.Â
Its now 6 month on and still no reliable answers. Nothing in Gambalunga , nothing from Guzzi. not a hint fromanywhere. My local dealer states the 8 valve norges are now trouble free and very reliable - but from when ?, 2011, 2012 2013 when did the changes happen is there any way to know if the early models have been upgraded ?. are the new models long term reliable ? it would be good to know. I have my own bike up for sale and have looked at a few 2 valve Norge’s having now ruled out the 8 valve models due to this uncertain reliability and the hidden and undisclosed information trail. Looks like several nails have been banged good and tight in to the Moto Guzzi coffin lid.
I admit to being prejudiced in favour of Sue and Keith as they are longstanding friends whose advice I trust.
I wouldn’t buy or recommend to buy an 8 valve Guzzi.
I have just bought a 2014 reg 1200 Sport Corsa which is due to be delivered tomorrow, as no 1200 Sports got the roller tappets I was reluctant to buy one, but then found out that the dealer had upgraded the bike to rollers, at the cost to Piaggio, I will report on the bike when I get it
i emailed Piaggio UK MD about the situation for out of warranty bikes.
the essential is that is has to have been maintained by a Guzzi dealer, all services, not just under warranty. otherwise it is unlikely to cover any claim.
Pet Roper, Guzzi guru, believes that every 8v not rollerised will fail. he has now done dozens of 8v and every one showed varying signs of wear. now has me paranoid about my Norge
Thanks for those replies - I think the 2 valve route will be the safe route for me. I believe the later Norges 2012/13 are fitted with roller valves from the factory but can not seem to authenticate this. It would help if Guzzi would just put up their hands say we got it wrong and recall all the older 4 valve models and stick new cylinder heads on with the modified Roller set up - but then are their other changes ? someone mentioned about higher output oil pump and so. Here is hoping anyone with the older set up has no problems. On a side note i am told by my local dealer the Norge is to be discontinued from this year. So do not know if a replacement tourer is being planned.
I’m with Ian on this. I wouldn’t recommend any 8 valve Guzzi. A few years ago I was in the market for a Griso, and after much research and reading of horror stories, I purchased a 4 valve model, despite being offered a few 8 valvers at a very similar price. Since then I’ve noticed that the 4 valve models are holding their price much better than the newer 8 valve ones. Having ridden both, performance wise there is no real difference.
May be worth a chat with the team at Strefford’s.
They have sold and serviced a few high mileage 8 valve bikes.
Nathan has his theories on premature failure.
This doesn’t detract from the inherent design flaw of the earlier bikes.
I read recently (can’t remember where!) of someone who snapped up an early design bike at a bargain price and then paid c £650 for the roller head conversion.
As ever there’s a Guzzi out there for you it’s just a matter of which one
Many of you know, My 2011 Flat tappet bike has ridden over 80,000 miles Cam replaced at 12,000 The bike now has new owner as is very happy.
The overall finish on the bike is good, Yes we have problems at 20,000 miles a year, I expect snags, BUT it always get you home with a grin.
I have had three Stelvios on my 2015 bike 15000 miles
If you believe all you read you would never leave the house on any bike. As said earlier talk to Streffords.
My personal theory is if the bike is used and “Serviced correctly”. No worries
What I mean is Serviced correctly using the correct information and oils.
I have Taken my wife from Nord Kapp too Sicily and many other destinations, I would not do this if I thought the bike was not up-to the job,
We work full time so out holidays are short we do not want to be left stranded. Remember the tyres, head bearings, disk brakes, Swinging arm, are just as vulnerable if not looked after.
Most people who doubt the bikes do not actually ride the distance.
Stop worrying about the bike, ride it, enjoy it, after all its a Moto Guzzi
Well put Paul.
Yes, we can all ponder on the theoretical life of various parts on all sorts of bikes. Aside for the example by ‘Forum Officer’, I know of other high mileage Stelvios without any serious issues.
I’m not wasting time worrying about something very unlikely to happen so will use/service mine properly as intended, wide open throttle and grin in unison . I’m even considering an 8 valve Griso to join the Stelvio.
Life is too short etc.
I eventually sorted this issue, i looked at a few Norges and as fine a bike as they are I eneded up buying a Spada (1978), which needs a little attention mainly a new wiring harness and a few little bits and bobs. But hopefully reasonably reliable once fully fettled. Certainly not been the cheapest option as time i have done the paintwork, and replaced the wiring and sorted a few other bits and bobs. Still I am a happy bod - or will be when its back together and sorted.
The Spada is a very nice bike.
Leaving the price and kudo’s alone if I was given the choice between a Spada or a Le Mans for riding touring today (aged the right side of 60) I would go for the Spada.
I finally gave in to my paranoia about my non rollered 2012 Norge 13000 miles
Got the cam boxes out, three tappets showing obvious wear and one fully stripped of the coating. Now going to cost me about 800 quid.
I don’t have a full dealer warranty so Piaggio don’t want to know
If you have any 8v up to mid 2012, thats built after not sold, then it is going to fail, only a matter of time
Interestingly my 36 year old T5 which sits outside and hadn’t moved in seven weeks started first time - pity they are not all that reliable