Thanks Don and Brian; I already stripped the motor and solenoid and found nothing amiss. I’ve also carried out the “bridge” checks mentioned elsewhere and I found something interesting. The “non-engagement” motor test works fine and so does the heavy feed to small spade test (except that the motor scarcely turns the engine over). The machine-gunning only occurs when the start is initiated via the starter-button.
Anyhow, having tried a start with the battery freshly charged (12.4 volts after resting) and had no luck, I hooked up a “power station” booster battery (via the battery terminals) and tried again using the starter button. It turned over rapidly and started immediately. The alternator light went out after a blip of throttle and I got the charging voltage (with the power station disconnected) up to around 13.8 volts at a road-speed of 70mph on the stand (no tacho on a Convert!).
I’m pretty convinced the battery’s had it, anyway; and the charging circuit seems to be working well enough. I’ll fit a new battery and carry out some more tests.
Thanks for the offer, Don, but I’m in Southampton and I think I’m close to solving this.
Grazie mille tutti,
A.T.
A good battery for the Tonti frame is a lawn mower battery, such as thishttp://www.tayna.co.uk/12N24-3-12N24-3A-Numax-Lawnmower-Battery-895-Y60N24LA-U1R9-P4107.htmlI think they do a 32Amp hour version as well. Any lawn mower shop should be able to sort you out with something. ref 12-N-24 (or 32 for the bigger one)
The Convert WIll work best with the lead acid battery one thing to finally check look closely at the copper braid that is a few mm’s long from the piggy back solenoid to the starter motor I had mine break YOU couldn’t see it as such but it caused intermittent starting,
To be fair I got my starter reconditioned as a unit by the local Bosch dealership, didn’t cost m much either, when I had a diode replaced I had it done by a local old style TV and radio repair shop the guy was old school a small little shop in a side street…these places are about and often are a godsend for older equipment pre transistorised.
Aye this one. http://www.tayna.co.uk/895-Enduroline-Lawnmower-Battery-310-CCA-P8379.html Note these have gone maintenance-free now (does not look like photo). Length is about 1 inch shorter than that of the battery tray space!
Thanks guys. I was looking at Yuasa and Tashima batteries, all more expensive than these. The Y60-N30L-A Numax battery comes in at around £60 from Tayna whereas the lawnmower ones are a good deal cheaper. Don’s link brings up a 32ah battery which appears to be calcium (cxt) although it does have a 290 CCA. Mike’s is the upgrade-Enduroline 310 CCA but I think this is calcium also.
I think I’ll sleep on it and maybe do a bit of research into calcium technology-I don’t see why they shouldn’t work well, but as Guzzibear has said, the Convert is totally dependant on the battery as it has a torque converter. Having a Bosch starter and considering I might (very reluctantly) have to sell the bike, I’m leaning towards the Numax at £60. It’ll need some grunt and I would want the bike to be trouble-free for the new owner!
Great information, guys, thanks a lot,
A.T.
You’re right, you’re not wrong
I have over the last 20 years used
Car Batteries
AGM, which on paper do have more starting amps but it failed after under 2 years
Finally after looking at Northwest’s thread re batteries went to the Guzzi OEM type lead acid one HE like me found alternatives just did not last that well.
The AGM ones certainly failed and caused starting issues and MY V1000 was BUILT as a convert BUT had a gearbox added years ago… MY experience of the AGM one was not any where near as good as the car battery , all I can say is Northwest and I have had many years experience of Guzzis.
WE have found, to our cost, that the Guzzi OEM type lead acid works by far the best… The AGM type will not churn the Bosch started long enough especially when it gets cold.
This is interesting 'cause I’ve been doing a bit of research last couple of hours, it seems more and more everybody’s (that is, suppliers / vehicle manufacturers) going over to maintenance free, sealed, AGM and silver calcium like mine is (ordered what looked like ordinary LA as pic on the web page what arrived is totally different looking Ca+ type). Research is hampered as usual by mountains of Internet bullsh*t (hence why it took so long) but I did come up with one or two useful snippets, such as this one: http://www.advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/batteryjargonbuster.html
I take all that on board about maintenance-free, sealed, silver calcium, gel and so on; but they seem to be, against all prior experience, CHEAPER than the tried and tested wet batteries that we know and love; and forgive me for doubting, but I always thought that sustained power output from a battery required free (unimpaired) access from the molecules in the plates to the molecules in the electrolyte. It seems to me that this can only be achieved in a fluid-an electrolyte which is in gel form or trapped in a foam matrix must restrict the movement of molecules around the plates. Perhaps my view is simplistic, and I’m no chemist, but that’s how it looks to me. Where are the anoraks when you need them?
A.T.
All I know is I have had a lawnmower battery on mine for 4 years. It works and only cost £45-00. That’s good for me.
I know Don BUT the Vthou and convert especially can take a heck of alot more out of the battery mind I tend to use mine an awful lot all year round, i can only say it is what I have found and so has Bob…
Plenty on webernet but mostly talking rollox Whatever it is, it’s still basically water and acid, because that’s only what will work. EDIT: added quote (else doesn’t make sense!)
Mike H2013-08-19 12:09:12
Since you can’t bump start a Convert, I would go for the battery with the highest AH rating. All the AGM ones have a much lower AH rating because they have higher max current, but if it doesn’t catch third time you don’t get another go. With the larger capacity battery you do get that fourth and fifth go.
That is exactly what I found especially in cold weather by the 3rd stab it was really not a go. I live on a steep hill and with the gearbox fitted i got away with a bump start but still a faff, swapping to the old style lead acid battery and it fires up a hell of alot easier … OK other ones work BUt I got the AGM from tanya the reccomended upgrade, got the lead acid from twiggers, very compeditive and all filled and charged.
I read Northwest’s coments re batteries, like me after many yrs cramming car batteries , trying agm (same result) and other stuff, he went for the Guzzi OEM lead acid, again same result.
The AGM was fine for the first year and I have the correct battery tender, the charging sys is not only good it has the police upgrade altenator on it so never a problem.
I can only report my findings also those of another owner with well over 25 yrs Guzzi older bike experience… The AGM battery was no way the cheaper option, BUT the convert is dead without a good battery and tip top charging system
I agree-the AH rating is important-but so is the CCA. The Numax battery which Tayna recommend specifically for the Convert has a 30AH rating but Tayna have just replied to my enquiry and said that:
“Numax do not give these batteries a CCA rating, but they generally have the lowest CCA rating. I would expect that this battery had a CCA of around 200-250CCA.
This is a wet lead acid battery”.
The Enduroline has a 32AH rating and offers 310CCA. I’d instinctively go for the biggest CCA, but does anyone know what the Convert pulls when starting from cold?
:
Regardless of model, the starter motor is still the same standard 0.7 hp Bosch, so about 60 Amps. Can’t see how a Convert will use more power, just because it’s a Convert. Unless what’s meant is 'cause of the larger capacity motor (948cc vs 844cc), but then the same would apply equally to G5 / Spada etc. (?)
Thanks, Mike. I’m not suggesting the Convert will use more grunt than any other bike; I just don’t know how much current to allow for. Having said that, the Convert has no neutral, and there is always some clutch drag, so it will probably pull a bit more than a bike with a conventional transmission as the starter has to turn the torque converter as well. Anyway, the more margin you have, the longer the battery is likely to last. If calcium batteries can really produce a sustained 300 amps then 60 should be a walk in the park! It just gets more complicated the deeper you look, doesn’t it?
A.T.
By the way, it might only be a 0.7hp motor, but the current it pulls will depend on the mechanical load and, if you stall it, or the engine is reluctant to turn, it could easily pull more than 60amps.
A.T.
Some interesting finds from yesterday’s Internet search. Automotive battery - Wikipedia Go down to ‘Fluid level’ and about calcium. “By changing the alloying element to calcium, more recent designs have lower water loss, unless overcharged*. Modern car batteries have reduced maintenance requirements, and may not provide caps for addition of water to the cells. Such batteries include extra electrolyte above the plates to allow for losses during the battery life.” According to one theory, this is achieved by the silver calcium raising the Voltage threshold at which gassing begins to occur (separation of water), from 14.4 to 14.8 Volts. From this it seems almost all the ‘advice’ on t’Internet have universally grabbed the wrong end of the stick, saying that silver calcium batts “must have a higher charging Voltage compared to ‘normal’ ones”. To me this must be nonsense because if you did that, you would nullify the advantage of having an increased gassing Voltage, and be right back exactly where you were before! ‘Boiling’ water! (* above) It seems that this notion has come from what appears to be a misunderstanding of Ford’s ‘Smart Charging System’, first implemented as long ago as 1997. This is the best explanation of Ford’s system that I’ve found so far. Post #3. Mondeo MK3 Alternator & Charging System Woes!!!! Note no mention of ‘silver’ or ‘calcium’, it’s just a way of providing more charge for an initially cold battery. The remainder seems to be largely ‘Internet bolleaux’… HTH
Mike H2013-08-19 13:26:38
LOL that’s my fault for assuming engine will be turning normally. OK MG workshop manual says if stalled or stationary (called ‘short-circuit’), 320 - 400A @ 9V, 0.92 kg per metre squared of torque; 280 - 360A @ 8V, 0.82 kg per metre squared.