early starter motor variations

Just been out to fit a 5 pin starter relay to the v35 to allow me to have always on lights that cut while cranking to find the start does not have the electrical relay that i expected

its got a larger relay bolted to the frame with the +ve and output to the starter bolted to it

any one else seen one like this?

Is it an early CEV one? what are the other connections? It may be just an older version of what is now a micro relay…but without more info???

It will be an earlier type of relay, but it works in exactly the same way, though it will be a four terminal type. My V50 is the same.

thanks Brian, think i’m going to end up with 2 relays controlling the starter, new 5pin one controlling the lights and the switch over to starting, that output then controlling the original relay

the newer relays are far better I would suggest it is worth ordering a set of 5 from “Pyro dan” they are small handle the power and real useful as …spares I used my spares to good use on spotlights,hot grips and the headlamp/dip beam mod to get more o/p at the headlamp

got the accessory relief relay already, will just have to wire the older relay in.Sure my old v50 had the relay on the starter for the heavy load side of itshould be easy enough to sort :slight_smile:

Photo please the V35 still should have a solenoid on the starter to engage it etc the big one on the frame is really a heavy duty version of the little plastic ones

there is no small terminal on the starter and it has an angled metal cover over it. ( rather than the plastic push on cover my t5 had)the big lead from the battery is bolted to one terminal on the metal relay bolted on to the frame, the lead to the battery positive is bolted to another terminalthe small lucar connector goes to the output from the starter buttonall the components are original as is the wiring. Odd never remember my old v50 having this setup, but as Brian’s is the same it ties up to minemy v35 is 1977 according to the log bookwill sort pics over weekend Ray

guzzi-v352014-01-31 12:57:54

No what you describe does not sound right at all. The heavy cable from the battery positive goes to the large top terminal on the back of the solenoid. The lower terminal on the solenoid is linked to the starter motor itself.The wire to the spade terminal comes from connection 87 on the relay. There should be a brown wire from the fuse box via the ignition switch to pins 30 and 86. The wire from the start button should go to pin 85.To improve the reliability it is better to run a new wire from the battery positive to pin 30 on the relay, leaving pin 86 still connected to the brown wire.You can use the new relay in place of the older larger one, but if you want the lights to go out when you press the start button, the lights have to be connected to pin 87a on the new relay. However, as you have a light switch on the V35, this seems to be an extra which is a bit OTT.Your original wiring diagram is here.
Brian UK2014-01-31 15:38:16

mines different the relay has one small spade connection with the output of the starter button and 2 large terminals with the feed from the battery to one and the supply to the starter on the other. No 4th terminal, so I assume it earths through the frame

Its a metal rectangular relay bolted to the frame

starter is totally different to anything i have seen before on a guzzi. There is no relay onto of the starter and only one terminal

Will grab some more photo’s today ( bikes not at my house till I finish the workshop )

If you look at my starter motor in this picture there is no relay on top of it

Far as I can see I have an early Bosch DG starter motor ( Figure A in this picture from the workshop manual not the later DF that most bikes have)

its a 1977 mk1 Italian bike not a mk2 uk bike and has a metal angled cover bolted over the starter not a plastic push fit one

The wiring diagram you kindly linked to is a mk2 or 3, if you look carefully it shows wiring and 2 lights in the cluster for left and right indicators warning lights. My bike just has neutral ,oil pressure, generator, dip and main beam lights in the cluster. I did check and there is no wiring behind the cover for indicator warning lights
guzzi-v352014-02-01 07:36:22

Well maybe your’s is either an odd one, or a past owner has changed the starter motor for the earlier type, or the Italian home market spec was different. I have the workshop manual for the V35/V50, V35II/V50II and V50III, all in one book, and the only starter mentioned is the pre-engagement type.Looking at Carl Allison’s wiring diagrams, all models from the 1974 850T were fitted with pre-engagement starter motors.However, if it works, leave it alone. The relay you mention is what is normally called a remote solenoid, much heavier than any relay. But you don’t need the additional complexity of a relay because the solenoid does not have to move the motor pinion to engage with the flywheel, so the current drawn by the solenoid is far lower. What you have is what was standard on early Minis and other Brit cars.
Brian UK2014-02-01 08:43:35

:slight_smile: I all ways seem to get odd guzzi’s… well at least this one had 18" wheels!

everything looks original and un molested to me, started and bell housing have aged the same, remote solenoid and harness look original with no alterations or additions

it looks very similar to my austin 7 or morris minor set ups from the stater motor end

Yes, it is an old normal system, just surprised it has appeared on a 1977 Guzzi.
As I said, if it works, leave it alone. Any changes could work out very costly.Brian UK2014-02-01 10:37:18

Just been over and looked at starter in flesh, is the Bosch DG as shown in scan above . Looks nicer in flesh than later type with relay

Remote relay is easy to replace if it fails and Bosch stuff is easy enough to rebuild if the started fails but It’s less than 6000 miles old !

No plans to change . Will wire accessory relief relay in beside it to drop aux and lights when cranking

Not got many mods planned , always on lights and zt125r left hand switch gear and USB power for nav then leave her alone and enjoy !

Do you not have a light switch either? On the V50, I start the engine then turn on the lights. Italian spec might be different.

it has a physical switch with off side and main lights but they are on all the time regardless of position. Looking at the multi plug from the left hand switches there is a link wire between 3 pins in the harness. switched live goes to the side and dip/main wires.

again looks factory and the screw for the head lamp looks factory fresh. I presume it a different to uk spec

Well rather than mess about trying to get a relay in the various circuits, would it not be easier to modify the wiring to the switches so they work?It would seem that you have a completely different system to normal.

Have to say i have never seen thet type of starter motor on a Guzzi, looked at a fair few over the years, UK spec must be the difference I guess.

I cannot cope with the oem left hand switch gear and loved the Yamaha Xt125r setup on the t5. Bought a new XT125R switch and the accessory relief relay so can set it up to suite me

I want it setup with lights always on with nice uncluttered switch gear on the left, just indicators/horn and dip/main switch

won’t make any changes to the current remote starter relay except for tapping into the feed from the starter switch to control accessory relief relay with the lights and usb charger running of it, the feed for the accessory relay with come direct from the battery via fuse

electric’s and wiring don’t phase me at all so it won’t be a problem to make a few careful changes to suite my requirements. All changes will be easily removable if i ever want to return to standardguzzi-v352014-02-01 17:19:20

The right hand side Yam R1/R6 has 2 types one with lights on/off t’other with just start and kill switch BOTH are only a smidge over 1" wide and fit neatly on the right of a Guzzi where you really need something that thin… I did list yam- Guzzi wiring dunno if it is still there tho’