"Riding the rap"

General Discussion General Banter
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No excuses but mildly aggravating. While undertaking the 400 mile trip South to pick up my Mandello and drop my trade in at Swindon I collected a performance award from Cumbria police for the rental van I was driving.

Did the run overnight and at 22.50hrs on the M6 nabbed for a whopping 46mph in a road works 40 limit. Guessing it was an average speed cam more than likely. Very light traffic and nobody working.

OK. It’s a fair cop I guess but tough to swallow.

Anyway, it cost me a 35 quid ‘administration fee’ to Enterprise to supply identification of myself as the driver. Nice!

As the offence was not considered a ‘high speed’ infraction (that kicks in at 53mph) I got the option of standard fixed penalty and 3 points or voluntary ‘speed awareness course’.

I opted for the latter to be done online by Zoom meeting. 92 quid for the privilege. 3hrs apparently to be ‘educated about the dangers of speeding’.

As a responsible citizen and road user (I thought) I accept I have to “ride the rap” as Elmore Leonard puts it. I have to think positively and believe I will learn some valuable lessons from the course and be a better, more informed and considerate road user as a result.

Anyone else have experience of having done one of these?

I confess I am curious to see what it consists of and whether I will indeed be a better person for the experience?

I guess I have just been lucky to have survived 55+ yrs on the roads without either killing myself or anyone else?

“Write out 100 times ‘I am a bad boy’”

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I infringed a camera on green / go traffic light 35mph in a 30mph zone about 7hrs ago. Option was given to attend a course which I did. Whilst a small number of the attendees remained in denial I found it worthwhile and interesting. No idea what it’ll be like on a Zoom call but be prepared to deal with a few idiots and just keep an open mind and give it a go :blush:

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I’ve done a couple of these over the years. The first was for going through road works on M6. Over the brow of a hill straight temporary speed limit with police car actually waiting in the road works. When I asked if a lot of people were caught the policeman said “it was like shelling peas”.

I did find it useful and I have modified my driving and riding. So go with open mind.

You will probably miss out on seeing how the other attendees react and behave on zoom.

If you get a chance check out Joe Lycett’s stand up on his experience.

So why the 2nd offence. Doing 32 mph in the Limehouse tunnel at midnight with absolutely no one else to be seen. I ask you 2mph!

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Yeah guys! It’s kinda like punctures in a way. If you are on the road long enough they are going to happen some time. These extremely low level ones though I’d have thought entitled to a little interpretation? On many bikes especially a millimetre shift in throttle can boost your speed real quick!

As for attitude to the course I really do keep an open mind. My view has always been that you never stop learning but I have found too often that many people simply stop listening?

Hey, it’s a novel experience and I’m quite happy to spend a few hours on what has every chance of being a crappy, wet morning if I learn just one or two new things. None of us are perfect. Peace!

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I did a course in 2013, I thought it was useful. Not sure about the Zoom though, can’t see how our meeting could have been done like that.

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I did a course a few years ago and found it very interesting. This was before the days of Zoom, teams and all the oher forms of virtual meetings.
What amazed me was how few people knew what the national speed limits are, someone said 50 on a single carraigeway, 60 on a dual and 70 on the motorways.

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Like you guys I have never participated in a Zoom type meeting. Interested to see how that is handled and conducted. A first for me.

Other day I sat and went through the Highway Code online for the first time in many years. All those little nuances I had honestly forgotten. One of the things that struck me to realise was just how much information we are faced with and have to absorb in amongst all the other inputs we are dealing with every time you take to the road. As a motorcyclist especially it is what keeps us alive while arguably dealing with a myriad of complicated functions and physics that simply do not apply on four wheels.

BTW I spent my professional life as an ICU trauma nurse starting out before the days of laminated windscreens, compulsory crash helmets and seatbelts even.

Years ago I read a very interesting book pointing out all the additional safety equipment added in the last quarter century. Airbags, sophisticated child seats, lane warnings and idiot lights, better built crash cages in cars and on and on. What, the author proposed, was missing was teaching people to be better drivers. Thus I am curious to see what kind of messages I will get that contribute to that.

I pride myself on concentration and situational awareness yet, every day I watch people still using mobiles, dogs in their laps and people who are demonstrably afraid of their vehicles and just being on a busy road. Speed is only one element but gets way more enforcement it seems?

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I did a Zoom one a couple of months back, again, M6 variable speed camera, 57 in a temporary 50 limit at midnight on the way to catch the ferry to the TT.

I was in a 30 year old camper van, driving like Miss Daisy on an empty motorway and thinking I was behaving, but in the rain I’d misread the sign on the overhead gantry, I genuinely thought it showed 60.

As with my only previous ‘driver education course’, it was pretty much an utter waste of time, but it reminded me to look better. As has been mentioned, the skills that keep you alive as a motorbike rider are the same as those that stop you being knicked.

Did I learn anything.?

Well I learned the diffence in stopping distance between some speeds, which obviously I’ve completely forgotten since, and anyhow, unless I could project measurements onto the road, who the hell knows accurately what those differences look like.

I learned N.Yorks police love using cameras.

Also learned that some folk attending such courses need to understand, nobody else is interested in their excuses, we we’re all caught out so don’t bother wasting time. Just pay the fine, sorry, the ‘course fee’, answer the questions,and get your attendance tick instead of the points, then chalk it off as ‘collateral damage’ for all the times you’ve not had the misfortune to drive past one of N.Yorks cash cameras.

I also learned I might need new glasses.

But the biggest lesson was, there really are lots of retired coppers earning good money talking for a few hours to folk via a Zoom call.. and Just like the guy who ran the one I did ‘in person’ some years ago who’s opening statements were.. “We all speed don’t we”, followed by, “I only do this to pay for my next holiday”, the chap running my meeting simply kept rattling off the same script he’d clearly done many many times before, oh and laughing at his own jokes.

As you said, the ‘education’ is only offered if your offence is marginal, I’d argue it’d be better if we all had to do refreshers periodically, as it is, doing it this way, surely that horse has bolted.?

Personally, next time I’ll take the points, frankly I’d rather stick pins in my eyes than do another.

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I took the option of a speed awareness session over a fine, and I do not regret it. It was an eye opener that at least a quarter present did not have a clue about the Highway Code, by the way it was updated not so long ago, so reading it again does no harm.

I have also attended a Police bike safe event, the first part was like a speed awareness session, then we went out on the road in pairs plus a motorcycle officer observing our riding, first one ahead and the other behind the officer then after a while we swapped. I found it vey informative, especially concerning my line through corners. Recommended to all, tune the rider as well as the bike!

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Hey Chris, as already stated I am open to learning or re-learning anything any time. All good.

As a slight diversion from this regarding the proposed re-test options for over 70’s on licence renewal. I am totally in favour of that as I am continually shocked and wary of so many of our ageing population’s behaviours on the roads. I am 73 yrs old now and sincerely hope that I am self reflectively honest with myself about my own performance.

I would happily submit to a competence test every three years as well as functional eyesight test as long as it is ‘real world’ based. i.e. not treating me like a brand new driver/rider with no experience. I am exremely wary of ‘lowest common denominator’ benchmarks for anything.

Dumbing down just insults anyone with a brain. Small example.. in a car keep your hands at the ten to two position when not performing some other task? BS I say. My brain is conditioned to respond to an emergency stop in that at the same time as r foot hiiting the brakes I am downshifting to use engine braking as well. Or using indicators for every single manoeuvre whether or not there is anyone there to benefit from them. Observation and interpretation are everything so test me like the police do by having me relate an ongoing narrative of observations and choices?

The kicker is that I am pretty sure that the first ten minutes in a vehicle could potentially rid our roads of potentially staggering numbers of people who should simply not be in charge of a lethal weapon which, as my old man constantly reminded me when teaching me to drive, is exactly what a powered vehicle is.

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I have one to take tomorrow. I was out for an early ride taking the B roads and accelerated away from a roundabout up a long hill and spotted the dreaded white van in a gateway halfway up. I had never seen one on that road before. Checked my speed slowed to 50 although I knew it was a 60 limit. thinking that as the camera was at the rear and I wouldn’t be done. Trickled past and he took the photo of my plate. This was 7:154 in the morning, not another vehicle in sight. 69 in a 60. Lesson learned. I did a course about 11 years ago in person. Full of housewives and pensioners. One question was What is the national speed limit on an A road? (showing the national speed limit sign) The answers came back 50mph. Arrgh!! :enraged_face:

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retests for over 70s might be ok if they are free.

I have to renew my licence every 5 years and have a medical as it is, to keep my HGV entitlement, and I have to pay for all that.

the more rules and checks are implemented, usually means the more we have to pay for it all.

by the way you are not required to indicate if there is nobody there to see it, as far as I know.

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ACPO guidance is to allow 10%+2mph leeway, seems that not everyone posting here is being given that leeway and some are getting tickets at exactly that amount over

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Hmm I was right on the money then at 46!

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Had several of these courses over the last few years - the motorway one is classed as different from the routine normal one and runs over different time qualification period - I’ve found its possible to have one for motorway and one for a speed camera on an A road within several months of each other ! They are informative courses and really show that keeping under 20 MPH for example, most folk walk away with a bruise rather than death ! From my side I’ve just been done for a similar thing - 2 landing on the door step within 5 days of each other for speeding on the M5, J6-4 with the smart section boards displaying nothing regarding the speed limit, From what I can appertain they leave the cameras running after an incident - in my case approx 1.5 HRS after both times the boards were turned off. (The photos sent to you are taken from a set of cameras prior to the yellow one on the gantry or pillar and show the overhead gantry display with your vehicle below it, look for the grey ones approx 50 m before the gantry if you need proof - always ask for photos to ensure it is you and not a cloned vehicle - you get three normally in the set - a close up one with your plates on show ) So if you drive on a smart motorway - be careful - no board information doesn’t mean the cameras are not primed to get you. ( I know this now from my own experience now) My advice: Take the courses if offered - points rapidly build up and if you run through several smart motorways during your journey you can end up with a lot of points if unfortunate. If you feel its unfair - just remember, it appears you can steal up to £250 of goods from a shop without police intervention - and if you break into this country using a rubber boat as a migrant worker pretending to need asylum ( from such a rough, dangerous country as France lol) they now give you a Hotel and a bed .. Mad world isn’t it ?

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I’m not the blue car in the outside lane either - there’s a few of us with fines for sure, distance between cars is decent and its dry and light, just driving with the flow of traffic and nothing unsafe or dangerous.

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Yeah, it’s a psychology game to a degree but when all is said and done it’s still a case that you are caught. I can’t argue with that.

For all the average speed cams around you actually have now way of knowing how many of them are actually in use or functional. Truthfully though, despite being a pain, they work for the most part in that the vast majority of people stay in the bounds.

Road works ones and especially on motorways there is little if any excuse that flies. On that trip I was on, late at night and multiple sections restricted it is so easy to drift up a little especially when there is so little traffic ahead of you. Over 400 miles I don’t know or remember how many I passed through. It is aggravating for sure but as I stated at the beginning of the string, all you can do is fess up and ride the rap.

To err is human, to judge is divine! Don’t matter whether you are a true believer or not?

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On my estate, we have moveable speed readers that indicate if your over the limit with a scowling face or smile if under , why not install on the motorway gantries , the same devices ? Like you say the speed creeps up - see the photo I posted - I was just keeping pace with traffic.

No defence though . M5 seems a particular bad- I’ve heard the same thing about the smart section on M5 at Bristol. You never know when the cameras are operating or not.

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Feel you pain!

Try riding out in North Wales.plenty of zealots, but I appreciate that. It is very difficult to manage this world we live in.

Guzzi on my friend.

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You probably got zapped in the 40 section just south of Penrith, believe it is zero tolerance on this stretch where they are replacing the rail bridge. Last time I passed the sign said over 4 thousand caught speeding in the last month, so you are not alone.

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Exactly right! Something Bridge.. Clifton maybe?

Honestly I passed through so many roadworks that night I don’t recall one from another but I don’t remember any where anyone was actually working?

C’est la vie!