Deleted post due to issues.
1 Like
Youâre not wrong, but it ainât just motorcycles.. everyday items, everything it seems, shoes.. washing machines.. cars.. houses..
The get it quick, get it cheap mentality is reflected in so many ways these days.
Is the lack of quality self inflicted.?
3 Likes
The new bikes I see today will rarely be around in 5 let alone 10 yearsâŚ
Itâs actually very sad. We are killing the world with this quick turnaround mentality. Clothes, bikes, teapots, horses, millenials, WivesâŚno longevity.
Time for my medication.
5 Likes
Like many on here Iâve had my share of bikes over the years. A Harley made of cheese, a triumph that after a few trips in the rain I couldnât get any of the fairings off and a few other nightmare stories. However, Iâm just getting to the end of a restoration of a 250N Honda Superdream. (Always wanted one as a kid). I have to say that most of the screws, nuts and bolts came off with little or no effort. The bike is 45 years old and had stood idle for 20 years under an awning. Iâve been able to clean a lot of them and reuse the ones that are hard to obtain. Thereâs something in what you said about quality. There really is.
3 Likes
It doesnât help that consumers wonât pay for quality. How many times did we all visit our grandparents and itâd be âthis tablecloth cost me two months wagesâ (insert any item and any number of months⌠thereâd be something) which, as a child, breezed over your head as old person talk. But, that tablecloth, now sixty years old, was still in amazingly good nick.
These days people whine âIâm not paying thatâ and just buy cheap tat. Or expensive tat with good marketing. Then throw it and buy another when it wears out.
People donât look for value, just price.
2 Likes
HmmmâŚI think there is some generalisation afoot! Yes, âthingsâ are built down to a price point these days for all the reasons stated however there is a small but definate market for better quality goods.
Motorbikes (and indeed cars) are at the mercy of the software support lifecycle and we all know the failure point of the electronics can be the deciding factor in writing off an otherwise sound vehicle. We all suspect our bike and car engines, manufactured to close tolerances using modern metallurgy, will outlast these electronics however there is reason to be sceptical!
Manufacturers have ALWAYS built stuff down to a price point; for example the bracket holding the exhaust to the bike has to be made strong enough to last the warranty period under reasonable use. Before we could do clever things with 3D modelling and CAD, we would have had to make the bracket and test it to destruction to ensure it could just do the job for long enough. Multiply that by a hundred thousand other components and you have a very expensive testing process on your handsâŚso traditional mechanical design principals were applied instead - They were built stronger than necessary, using more material and adding more weight than strictly necessary. Most of us donât mind this because it supports long-term ownership.
Fast forward to todayâs world and every manufacturer is under pressure to meet ever-tightening emissions regâs, competitive performance demands and improved efficiency in use. With the wonder tools of 3D modelling we can now stress-test designs virtually at a much lower cost so of course each component will be reduced to itâs weakest, lightest and cheapest state that will still âdo the jobâ under reasonable use for the warranty period.
We all know this has happened but guess what? Itâs actually the consumers (us) who have largely created this situation by our demands for the cheapest, best performing and most efficient product. The other factor is of course government legislation that also drives the lightness/fuel efficiency trend. The fact we now have many âthrowawayâ cheap Chinese built 125s on the market illustrates this.
I would, however, argue the case that the build quality of modern Moto Guzziâs is a cut above the average bike.
Jon
4 Likes
You put forward a good argument there but I still think itâs a problem that will inevitably require a rethink one day. Iâm in the process of buying an older cb125f before they put a tft (unnecessarily) on a 125cc bike! I know itâs due to demand and the fact cheap Chinese bikes have tfts so they have to keep up but like you say itâs something to go wrong or become obsolete long before the bike does. Another topic really but, I do not need connectivity, phone calls, messages, etc I need to look at the road and other drivers using there phones and tech so I can stay alive. Bikes should be well made and simple. They are becoming cheaply made and complicated.
And it all depends on how you measure quality.
Matchless and AJS had (by modern standards) very good deep paintwork and neat brazing. But the brakes were weak, the prices they paid for rims meant loads have rusted away and the primary cases never retained oil right to the end.
Enfield had excellent crankshafts but wouldnât pay a good price for a gearbox after the war. BSA and Triumph forced Amal to reduce metal quality until we got the awful concentric.
Ducati handled well but every major component used to break,
Honda camchains used to require replacement at 10-16 thousand miles .
We all know our Favourite brandâs weaknesses
In my opinion modern bikes are much better in some ways and worse in others.
However i fully agree about TFT & IMUs and data links to the manufacturer.
The picture shows all the instruments i need
4 Likes
Nah, youâre missing one vital instrument.. a clock 
And ideally itâd be one that lights up in the dark with a dial big enough to be easily read with.. er.. âmatureâ eyes.!
Some interesting comments, a good thread youâve started Mr Greenhoward 
1 Like
I remember the first time I noticed my Breva clocks lighting up red in the dark, I smiled and it felt good, almost over delivering. When my Wifeâs tft lights up, well, itâs expected isnât itâŚ
Charlie Boorman on his long way home bike, (itâs on YouTube) says that the speedo failed but he could work out the speed from the revs and lights failed but fixed with a bit of fettling. Canât fettle modern bikes with a chip or electronic package that runs everything.
All this talk about electrics is one aspect but and unfortunately, and I do load Moto Guzzi in with this, is the lack of paint quality. The thick coach like paint jobs of yesterday are gone. Even a light polish will scratch modern paint. I imagine itâs due to time /costing constraints?
Don Draper said in MadMen, âpeople want to be told what do do so badly that theyâll listen to anythingâ. My point being that in the age of Instagram, actual real life quality is secondary, it would seem.
Wotâs software? 
I can reflash my ECU and thatâs enough.
1 Like
Most modern bikes leave me cold with all the riding modes, anti wheelie, whispering exhausts TFT screens, poorly mapped fuel injection - They get more like white goods every day - I dont want tft screens and plastic trim, give me carbs, analogue instuments, and a bit of character.
I dont think the quality nowadays is any better or worse than it was in the past.
Russell
4 Likes
We have just got back from a week in Sorrento and it really amazed me how many old Vespas are still running. I started riding in the early 80s so i am familiar with the models. We used to buy them as cheap transport. Also to tune as the original MSC supplied tuning parts for the right money. We dreamed of rd and x7 ownership.
These late 70s and 80s scooters are mainly a bit battered but the paint finish is still pretty good the wheels look reasonable and the lenses and swich gear are still original. To be fair they would never be entered into a classic show but they are still running well and seem to have lots of life left in them.
By comparison the newer scooters piaggio honda and all the other brands look likely to expire at any moment. So i genuinely believe that standards of vehicles have fallen massively. If a cheap 50cc vespa from the early 80s outlast a 2010 honda then something is a miss.
Funniest bike episode all week was a young girl riding a scooter past to policemen holding a dinning chair in her left hand. Not even a second glance.
Some seriously dodgy driving and overtakes but everyone just goes with the flow.
We could genuinely learn from them.
Hilarious.
Very few guzzi about but a number of ducati monsters.
3 Likes
I must admit, I think the technology is going to far, this years latest is auto boxes, not for me I actually enjoy riding the bike. Some tech is good ABS and Traction I think are great safety measures and can save a silly accident. Modes, why maybe rain is useful on really powerful bikes but the throttle goes both ways. I have an old ZZR1200 and GSXR 750 SRAD that have nothing and are great fun to ride because you are in full control. I love my Mandello and feel the tech is probably a bit unnecessary but manufactures have to keep up with the Jonesâs. I think the overall quality of the bikes is probably as good\bad as its always been I do agree with the awful exhaust box that sits under the Mandello I treat it to corrosion fluid after every ride in a attempt to keep it looking reasonable for a bit longer (lots of smoke on next startup) however we can thank the government legislation for these monstrous exhaust systems.
Paul
1 Like
Iâve tried to hold back, but I have to throw a few words in here.
I have a '78 and '81 Yamahas from new. The frame paint didnât last two years before it had rust along all the welds. The '78 had Hammerite on the frame as soon as the new bike came along. The underside of the tank didnât even have any paint blown on it, just bare steel underneath. I have a brand new tank for it in a box and thatâs the same. Hondas, Suzukis, Kawas all the same. Camchains and tensioners were always a problem from make to make, just different problems. The floating caliper brakes had to be stripped every year because the materials werenât up to resisting corrosion. Exhaust systems rotted out within two years. Thatâs why there were so many after-market suppliers around. People didnât put Pipers or Motads on for the noise back then, it was to keep the machine running and if it sounded fruity, all the better. Batteries lasted 3 years if you were lucky. Japanese and Italian chrome rusted or flaked off in 1-2 years.
Modern materials, coatings, paint, manufacturing tolerance are much better now. Electronics and software bugs are the bane of my modern 'biking existence. Fair disclosure, I did automotive electronics and engine control in a previous lifetime. When itâs done right, itâs brilliant, when itâs done for marketing gimmick, by people who should only be posting on web forums, it becomes dystopian.
So, in summary, I believe things werenât that good in the good old days, and I donât think theyâre all bad in the new ones. Iâve found modern, two-pack paint is really good, actually. I sold my 7 year old BMW in showroom condition, which youâd never have been able to do in 1980, and our Mandello looks great, and better build quality than BMs or anything else from 1980. Apart from teh lack of grease in anything, from bearings to fasteners.
8 Likes
Good points. I suppose it comes down to the owner and the maintenance in a lot of cases.
1 Like
wifeâs tft⌠i had to reread this, thought it something else 
3 Likes
Actually, yes - modern paint is probably better in terms of quality. My 11 year old VW Golf has many a stone chip and not one has rusted. Whereas my 1972 Beetle needed paint maintenance (to cure heavy rust) regularly.
The Guzzi has rusted but on bits where there is no paint (hardly a surprise) like the hole for the rear foot pegs which is exposed under the rear fender. Ram it full of grease before it gets salty I guess.
On checking my rose-tinted specs..
Iâve found they do indeed show signs of corrosion, and their colour has faded in some areas..
(Though this all may simply be a reflection of my fading memory and eyesight 
).
Damn.. canât rely on owt these days.!
7 Likes
My youngest bike is 2001. My sports mode is twist open the thottle, rain mode twist throttle the other way. Modern tyres already give me more grip in ****/ wet road conditions, which also improves my fun/ safety margins.
1 Like